SRG podcast episode 3, Seeking Justice: Part One transcript

Ciara, Rape Crisis Scotland 00:04

Hello and welcome to speaking out the Rape Crisis Scotland podcast. My name is Ciara Maguire and I’m the Participation and Resources Worker at Rape Crisis Scotland, Scotland’s leading charity working to end sexual violence. I work with the survivor reference group or SRG. Who are a group of survivors from across Scotland who campaign for change, to improve experiences for survivors of sexual violence. In many of our meetings survivors have told us how survivors are often talked about rather than to by the media and people in power. Sensationalist narratives are often prioritised above survivors’ real experiences. This podcast is a chance for survivors to talk about their experiences on their own terms and have their voices heard. The interviews you’ll hear throughout this podcast were recorded at different times and with different members of the Rape Crisis Scotland team, you’ll hear a variety of experiences of survivors who engage with the justice system, they share their experiences and what change they’d like to see. In this SRG podcast mini series, we cover a range of topics and issues affecting survivors. Please listen with care and be aware that there are discussions of sexual violence and people’s experiences of the justice system. You can find links to support in the show notes of each episode. This podcast is by survivors for survivors, but it’s also for anyone else who wants to hear directly from survivors about their experiences, from seeking justice to self care. So make sure to give other episodes a listen and let us know what you think.

 

RapeCrisisScotland 01:40

This episode Seeking Justice Part One is going to take a look at reporting sexual crimes, why survivors might choose to report and what the process is like. Of course, everyone’s journey is different. And it’s important to say that if you have experienced sexual violence of any form, Rape Crisis, advocacy support is available to support you through the process. You can also get in touch to find out more about the process to decide whether reporting is the right decision for you. We also know that engagement with the justice system is not equally accessible to all. And through there are many barriers that stand in the way for all survivors and reporting their experience to the police. For people from minoritized communities this is exacerbated: for people of colour for LGBTQ people, for disabled people, their experience of seeking justice or their decision not to is very often influenced by their experiences of discrimination and inequality. And our conversations around justice need to reflect that. We’re here today with Chloe, and she’s a member of the SRG, the Survivor Reference Group. So hi, Chloe, do you want to tell us a bit about what your experience of seeking justice was like?

 

Chloe 02:48

Absolutely. So, I think the best way I can describe my experience of seeking justice was, overall, as positive as it could have been. Of course, it’s so difficult to reflect on certain experiences, particularly ones relating to rape with any positive feelings, especially with phrases that are kind of chucked around very commonly, and uneducatedly, such as you know, I made you stronger, which is just absolutely not true. However, after many years of healing and taking care of myself, I can now reflect positively on the way I showed up for myself, the support I had around me, and thankfully the verdict that was also given.

 

RapeCrisisScotland 03:25

And was there anything in particular that you felt was helpful throughout that process or made the process easier for you?

 

Chloe 03:30

So I think the main aspect that made the process easier for me was the support I received from Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, specifically the advocacy service. So, this is a service that provides independent advocacy and supports survivors through the criminal justice system. So in layman’s terms, I was assigned a person, and we’re going to name her Sally even though that was not her name, but that’s what I’m going to call her. So, usually the service is provided for the entirety of the process. So, from reporting until verdict, For reference for me this was about a year and a half or just over. But I was the same Sally quite far into my justice seeking experience. And we did joke a couple times that we kind of had to rush the process of getting to know each other and building the foundation for the support. I got very lucky with Sally, she was amazing at her job and being there for me. So, pretty much she accompanied me to every meeting thereafter with my lawyer and court officials. And it was really comforting to have someone in my corner whose only job was to be there for me. So of course, your lawyer is there for you too. But after a certain point in the court process, the system that is in place can become quite overwhelming. So, for example, the case becomes the city versus the defendant and you become a witness rather than you versus the defendant, which is also quite comforting in its own way that you’re not taking on this other person, the city is, however, it can start to feel very official. So, it was very grounding, to have Sally there to go for a coffee with afterwards and talk about what just happened and kind of bring it back to real life rather than just the systematic operations of court proceedings. And then having her in court with me on the actual day was very comforting. Don’t be mistaken, of course, it is a very official and professional. So, Sally wasn’t allowed to look touch or kind of comfort me in any way during my time on the stand. But as soon as I walked out of the room, I had someone figuratively and literally behind me who had just been in the same room, and kind of witnessed the experience. And I was still able to see her from the stand while I was giving my statement. So, it was comforting to have her there, even if it was in quite an unconventional way.

 

RapeCrisisScotland 05:26

Absolutely. And yes, something that we definitely hear from a lot of survivors is how helpful it is to have a human face on the process. And yeah, like you mentioned, it can feel like a really official, kind of cold, detached process with all this kind of official language. So, just having someone that you can trust who’s going to show up for you can make all the difference.

 

Chloe 05:43

Yeah, absolutely. She was a godsend, to be perfectly honest.

 

Ciara, Rape Crisis Scotland 05:47

And you mentioned about your experience with the police. Maybe you could talk a bit about what your experience with the police was like after that initial report.

 

Chloe 05:54

Yes. So I had this kind of, so we’ll call him Ben. I had been a the same kind of police officer detective from the kind of beginning of the process, he was the one that picked up the perpetrator, he was the one who came to my house to do the identification process and kind of stuck with me throughout the whole process until it kind of got to the point where it moved past his kind of job role. And just the communication was fantastic. I was constantly kept up to date about what was happening, made aware of how things were moving forward. And even after it had kind of moved past his job role. He still kept in touch and kind of asked how things were going. And eventually, I was obviously able to give him some really great news that the verdict had went my way. He was just one person, every detective and police officer that I worked with, was just really supportive and empathetic, and kind of briefed me and made me aware of what was gonna happen and how things were going to move forward the further into the process I got. So yeah, I couldn’t have asked for a better team from taking the statement of just after the incident to ,yeah, making my way to court. I had a great team behind me. It was very supportive.

 

Ciara, Rape Crisis Scotland 06:55

That’s great. I’m so glad that you had that experience.

 

Chloe 06:58

Yeah, me too.

 

Ciara, Rape Crisis Scotland 06:59

Was there anything that you wish you had known when you were thinking about whether or not you wanted to report?

 

Chloe 07:03

Yes, probably a few things. So, I don’t want to discourage anyone who’s really considering it. But I do think it’s important to be aware of that court as a really difficult thing to go through. It’s a hard decision and a hard experience. But I think as long as you’re as aware as possible of what’s going to happen, it makes it a lot easier. So, of course it will be your lawyer’s job and officials to kind of fill you read and keep you updated and give you advice, which by the way, absolutely follow your lawyer’s advice, that is their job, they know what they’re doing. But what I can make you aware of which I’ve slightly touched on, as when a systematic operation kind of takes over, it starts to feel a little bit unsympathetic in a way, and like your experience has been desensitised. After all, this is their job. And it does become very kind of structured. But for you, it’s still a very real and heartbreaking experience. So just to be aware of that, I think is really important. It also just the use of the language, for example, your official, so my official name in the court process was ‘the complainer’. Finding that out was a hard day. Also the defendant’s lawyer being legally allowed to attack your truth and the evidence that you’ve provided. Of course, on the day, I think on the day, it’s really important to mentally prepare yourself because they are legally allowed to spin a story. And of course, they’re basing off whatever the perpetrator has told them. But they really do run with it. I totally believe in innocent until proven guilty, but it is a really difficult and hard situation when you’re one of the only people who actually knows what happened, and have it questioned in a roomful of people. But for all of your lawyer’s advice, stay calm, but firm, the actual process of being on a stand wasn’t long at all, I was only up there for 15 to 20 minutes, I spent more time waiting to go on the stand and actually being on the stand. So I think that’s quite comforting.

 

RapeCrisisScotland 08:41

And what would you like the people who have the power to change the system to know?

 

Chloe 08:45

So, first of all, let’s chuck the word complainer in the bin, I think that needs looked at. Secondly, I really feel that we need specific courts for sexual assault, rape, sexual violence, etc. I know that every criminal court proceeding must bring its own heartbreak and trauma but with an act such as rape, whether it be in such as a violent form of abuse, there’s but there’s still a person there afterwards who’s just been through a really traumatic event. And I think it’s really important that we accommodate this and be more sensitive towards how heartbreaking this situation really can be. And another thing I would say is that I think justice needs to be upheld. I keep seeing more and more news reports on rapists being released early due to good behaviour and I just don’t think that’s acceptable. I myself have recently been informed by my victim liaison officer that the perpetrator of the incident entered and I’ve been referring to has applied and been approved for a transfer to Category D prison. What this means is that he’d be allowed escorted, leading to unescorted, trips outside of prison to get reacquainted with the community and for work purposes, also potentially leading to overnight homestays. Yes, technically, it was never said that you wouldn’t be eligible for this but to only serve four years of a 14 and a half year sentence given for three different rape cases and then be given these allowances based on good behaviour takes away from what the justice system intends to do for people or women who come forward. This is why some don’t. Where was the good behaviour when you did what you did? Where was the good behaviour when you pleaded not guilty and made me go through the whole experience to only finally admit and apologise to the judge, not me, at the sentencing. Sentences need to be upheld in the way they’re given otherwise it undermines the incredible important work of everyone that was involved during the process.

 

RapeCrisisScotland 10:22

Thank you. So Chloe, what advice would you want to give to us any survivors who are thinking about whether or not they want to report?

 

Chloe 10:29

So I think my advice would be to ask yourself, do you want to. And the reason for this is, I think there’s so much victim blaming and pressure for women to come forward and report when they have been sexually assaulted, which just comes from a lack of understanding, you know, why didn’t you report why only speak now. So let me try and provide some level of understanding. To be raped is a life changing event that there is no coming back from. I know that’s depressing to say, but it’s true. I have never been and never will be the same, again, to be attacked in such a personal place in such a violent way causes trauma, which literally changes how your brain functions. I mentioned how I’m now able to look back on my experience with some positive feelings due to the way I showed up for myself, but that will look different for everybody. If showing up for yourself doesn’t include anything to do with reporting, then that is a different kind of strength. And the most important thing is taking care of yourself, looking at what’s changed and seeking support to come to terms with what’s happened, and to start the healing process, which is already a mammoth task as it is. You are not less valid than those who decide to report. I wasn’t sure if I was going to mention this. However, I think it could be useful. So unfortunately, the experience I have been talking about regarding going to court wasn’t my first experience of sexual assault. And I did not report that first time, because showing up for myself looked different. And I needed to do what was best for me. Yes, I do have days where I wonder what if, but I can never be mad or disappointed or ashamed or guilty in myself for making that decision. Because I know for a fact I couldn’t have handled it back then and it would have done me more harm than good. And that’s just the truth. However, saying all that, if you do want to or you feel like you need to, that was a big motivator for me, then I would say get all the support possible. I would highly recommend looking into advocacy services and setting those up as early in the process as possible. Or maybe you know, someone personally, then maybe respectfully and carefully bring up the possibility of discussing that. Find books, find podcasts about experiences, maybe that’s what you’re doing. Just fill yourself with information and resources and support groups, and be as mentally prepared as possible because it is a hard experience to go through having to be in the same room again as the perpetrator, having to stand and have your lived experience on trauma judged for being true or not. And then of course, there is the possibility that the verdict may not go the way you want it to or that the sentence won’t be upheld. I know this sounds really dissuading but it is reality and I think it is better to have all the information than be blindsided further into the process.

 

Ciara, Rape Crisis Scotland 13:00

Yeah, I think that’s so important to say any, you know, it’s never going to be a really easy process. But there is so much support out there and encouraging people to like, use that and they don’t have to go through it alone. And yeah, what that looks like is going to be different for everyone.

 

Chloe 13:16

Absolutely. Even just having your family and friends there for you as well. You know, telling a couple friends if you feel comfortable to do so just, you know having someone to meet you there after certain meetings or court proceedings and things like that was also a big help.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 13:28

With us today, we have Cerys, Alison, and my colleague Katie Anderson, who runs the National Advocacy Project.

 

All 13:34

Hi, hi. Hi,

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 13:36

Katie, before we get started, for people who don’t know, could you just tell us a wee bit about the National Advocacy Project and what you do?

 

Katie Anderson, Rape Crisis Scotland 13:42

Yes, so the National Advocacy Project is a project that is across all of our centres in Scotland, we are 17 centres through the network, we cover all areas of Scotland. And what the National Advocacy Project aims to do is provide support to people who are considering with the engaging with the criminal justice system, and people who have made the decision to engage with the criminal justice system. What we aim to provide is basically an end to end service. So no matter how long your justice journey lasts, we will be there to support you to advocate for you to stand with you, basically.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 14:15

It’s great. Thank you so much. And so now, I guess to Cerys and Alison, could I just ask you to tell us a bit more about what your experience of seeking justice was like?

 

Cerys 14:26

That’s a very big question. So I initially when to Rape Crisis, for a kind of group support. And then slightly later down the line, they arranged for me to have a meeting with a couple of police officers to ask some questions about the reporting process and what would that would involve and what that would look like. So I did that at the Rape Crisis Centre, which was a nice kind of neutral environment to do it and asked all the questions that I kind of, could and was allowed to because obviously, you have to be quite careful about what you say, so that the police don’t then have to go and act on it. And I decided not to report for another probably year or something. And then I came back and did the official report, again, at a rape crisis centre, which was really, really helpful for me, I think doing it in a kind of neutral also really supported environment. So that’s, that’s a brief summary.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 15:27

But we’ll have time to get into all of the, yeah, as much detail as you want to at a later point. Alison, what about you?

 

Alison 15:33

So, I had initially gone to my university, and they’d then told me a bunch of information about Rape Crisis. And I went to the Forth Valley centre, they were really good. So I went to them for counselling initially like one on one and then eventually reported it to the police. I didn’t have advocacy support at that point. I just basically phoned 999 or 111 and was like, here’s the situation, they put me through to the relevant department, and then I was in contact with one of the officers there. And they’d said, alright, we’ll come around to your house then. And I said, No, em so they’d, we’d agreed that they would meet me around the corner. So I did my initial report, just me and then the two officers in the backseat of an unmarked police car around the corner from my house, which was interesting.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 16:32

I suppose one of the things that’s come to mind naturally from listening to you both is that I think quite commonly, there’s a perception amongst people that if anyone’s experienced sexual violence, violence, then they’ll report it straight away. Whereas obviously, we know, that’s just not the case. Katie, I wonder if you just quickly want to speak to that, and to why that is such a harmful misconception.

 

Katie Anderson, Rape Crisis Scotland 16:54

I think it really shuts off options for people. Because first of all, I suppose what it partly does is cause people to make decisions when they are still in a state of shock, basically, so a lot of people I’ve certainly because I have worked in the national advocacy project, as well as coordinating the national advocacy project. And I know I’ve supported a number of people through the years who make that decision, because there’s this whole societal attitude that you should, it’s the right thing to do, and you do it immediately. And if you don’t do it immediately, you don’t have an option. And so once that sort of slight fog of shock clears to a certain extent, they’re then sucked into a process that if they had known that they had potentially had a little bit of time, is not necessarily a decision they would have made. Or they really struggled to remember parts of what happened, both in terms of the actual experience that led them to engage with the police, but also of their engagement with the police, there’s a lot that becomes very foggy, is really impacted by trauma. I think why also does this idea that if you don’t report immediately, you can’t report is that shuts off an option for so many people, particularly when we see the public conversation shifting in the way that has significantly over the last five or 10 years, where you then have a lot of people who maybe are recognising their experiences of sexual violence, whereas previously they knew it made them uncomfortable, and it was traumatic, but they wouldn’t necessarily have to find it as rape, for example. And so for those people that then feels like the door is very shut, which is not always the reality. I will not pretend that it is easy to seek justice at any point, and some elements of it may be easier if you do it quicker, there might be evidence that’s available to be captured, if you do it immediately. That might not be if you do it many years later. But I wouldn’t necessarily say that there is a best option, I would always say the best option is the option that is led by the person who is having to report or is making the decision to report

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 18:43

And certainly from a rape crisis perspective.

 

Katie Anderson, Rape Crisis Scotland 18:45

100%

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 18:46

So many survivors do not...

 

Katie Anderson, Rape Crisis Scotland 18:48

Oh, yeah. I think generally our statistics suggest that we support, about half of the people that we support, choose to report at some point or have chosen to report at some point and half will never make the decision to report it’s just not an option that they consider.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 19:02

Yeah, I’m interested as well, in terms of what you’re saying about actually how a lot of this links to kind of societal attitudes. And you know, what you said there in terms of actually being almost a pressure to report and not necessarily from individuals and people’s lives, but a sort of societal pressure? Did that impact either of you at all?

 

Alison 19:21

Mine was kind of complicated, because I think like another thing that probably needs to be raised is the level of awareness of like what rape actually is, because I mean, I was 18 I just come out school like, it was, you know, the first week of freshers, I didn’t really understand anything about any of that, for whatever reason, I think, partly a lack of education, but also partly because I didn’t want to admit it, I couldn’t acknowledge it as rape for quite like a couple months, and then I didn’t report till probably about six months after, and then I kind of spent a lot time being like, oh, I wish I’d reported earlier. If I’d reported earlier, it would have gone better. Police would have believed me. But actually, that’s not true. And I don’t think I think it’s really important that the onus isn’t on survivors, you are not responsible for the outcome of your investigation, you are only responsible for looking after yourself. You know, it’s not on you, it’s on the system that makes people feel like they need to report in a certain way. Yeah,

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 20:21

I think that’s a really good point, actually, in terms of perceptions, of yeah, of what rape is and what sort of, in quote marks, counts as rape. I think there’s a lot of misunderstandings that still really, really impact people’s ability to recognise that experience and potentially then to report it. Cerys, what about you in terms of the sort of societal pressure? Did you feel that at all?

 

Cerys 20:44

Yeah, I kind of agree with what’s already been said. It happened to me when I was 17. And then I got support from rape crisis first when I was like, 22. And the first time I thought properly about reporting and had that initial meeting, I was sort of, I think I was 22. And then I actually reported when I was 23. And it was concluded when I was 24. So we’re speaking about like, obviously, it’s not 50 years, but it’s a significant amount of time passed before reporting even really occurred to me. And I think a big part of that was, as you said, Really, what my definition of rape was, it was somebody that I thought I was friends with. And it was somebody that I knew very well, and it didn’t fit with what I thought rate was. So I didn’t even think about the word rape for at least six months or something, I think. So, it of course, it didn’t occur to me. So thankfully, I don’t feel any, of course, I shouldn’t, but I don’t feel any kind of anger towards myself. I didn’t report sooner, because actually, that’s not my fault. Like, I didn’t even realise the severity of what happened, I would have had absolutely no idea how to report, let alone that the idea would have crossed my mind. So it just was never going to happen. But yeah, I think that I would imagine most the time reporting as soon as possible, might influence the outcome to a degree. But I think for me, deciding to report was a very long, emotional process. And I think, ultimately, I decided to report because I thought that it was going to be the best thing for me and my healing. Basically, I didn’t do it for any other reason. And I think that that would be like, the biggest piece of advice I would give someone who was considering to report is you need to think about how you’re going to feel two years from now, five years from now, 10 years now, if you do or don’t report, and it shouldn’t be because you think that you should or because someone’s telling you that you should. And unfortunately, it also shouldn’t be about the outcome. Because as we know, the conviction rate is really, really poor. So you can’t I don’t think you should report chasing a conviction, either. It’s such a difficult decision. It’s such an individual decision. And I, I think that we should live in a world well, we should live in a world where it doesn’t happen anyway. But we should live in a world where I can sit and say like, Oh, absolutely, you should report and justice will be served. And you’ll feel so much better and empowered and blah, blah, blah. But I absolutely would not say that. I mean, I think it’s very individual. And there are pros and cons, and I am very glad I did report. But it’s a really difficult process. And again, when I when I first went to report, as in when I had the conversation with the police to see what it would involve, I was absolutely not ready, I could not have handled it. And it would have had a hugely negative impact on my life and my mental health. And I’m so glad I didn’t. Whereas when I went again, and I did officially report, it was kind of the mentally strongest position I’d ever been in. And it was still pretty unbearable at times. So I remember the kind of introduction to the SRG group in general. There was a document on it, and a part of it said, you know, reporting was never going to be easy, but it doesn’t need to be this hard. And I think that that is so true. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of barriers that you’ve already kind of mentioned to people reporting and through the justice system that makes it more difficult than it needs to be. But it’s always going to be horrible. I mean, my personal experience of reporting, took just under six hours of a conversation with me and a police officer. And I did have a friend with me for the first kind of 20 minutes and then I told her to leave because I felt more comfortable her not being there. But obviously it was very good she was able to be there. But yeah, six hours, and it comprised of 60 pages, each of which I had to reread and sign to say that I agreed with it. And that’s, I mean, that was just a day of it, you know, and then it went on for another nine months. You know, it’s a horrible thing to go through. And I think that, yeah, you need to think about, are you ready to deal with that, in that place in your life right now. And I think that that’s a huge ask of survivors immediately after an event.

 

Katie Anderson, Rape Crisis Scotland 25:19

Yes. So most of the time, whether you’re reporting something that is historic, or something that has really immediately happened, and I would say the police count anything to be historic, that is over 12 months, but there is windows of time in which you can take forensics, which is seven days, they will approach the investigations slightly different, depending on the window of time. So if you were to pick up the phone, within seven days of an incident happening, you generally will get quite a quick response from the police because they are at risk of losing evidence that they otherwise might be able to capture through forensics or say, you know, like CCTV, or, you know, like taxi drivers, you know, those type of people that are harder to track down the longer time goes on. Whereas if you’re reporting something 20 years later, you’re probably not going to have any CCTV, there’s definitely not going to be any forensics. But generally speaking, you will have uniformed police officers will take a very mini mini statement of who, what where and when, then you will be assigned depending on what has happened, you are likely to then have your case assigned to a sexual offences liaison officer. So an officer who is specially trained to take a sexual offences statement that is not blanket for all sexual offences. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system very much operates in a hierarchy in terms of offences. So there will be sexual offences that they do not class as being serious sexual offences, which I’m very much putting in quotations. Because they do come at it from a hierarchical point of view, they don’t look necessarily at solely the impact on someone, which is where we would come from, from a support perspective, they will then do the long statement. So that’s the six hour statement that Cerys was talking about. It’s not always six hours, sometimes it’s shorter, sometimes it’s longer. In theory, what they should allow you to do is to take that at your own pace. So you can break it down into sections, you can have a supporter with you, who is not someone who would be a witness. So it’s very key that it’s not someone who was, for example, the first person you told about what happened and not someone who sees something happened on a night out, and you had a friend with you, who saw you interacting with the perpetrator or the perpetrator interacting with you coming up to in a club or whatever, that person wouldn’t be able to be with you because they would count as a witness. But you can arrange to have someone who is not a witness or someone an advocacy worker from a Rape Crisis Centre to be in a statement with you. Most places, they will do a written statement, which is what they then read back to you and get you to sign. That is the point at which generally speaking, some of the contact that you will have with the police will drop off if you are within that seven day window that is the time also whether they’re looking at arrange for arranging forensics, which you always have the right not to consent to. It does potentially make a difference evidentially, but it also sometimes doesn’t. You know, I think forensics are often seen as being the sort of silver bullet as it were, and they are not always. So then once that sort of immediate evidence capture from you, the survivor, is taken. That then is the thing that influences how the rest of the investigation is built by the police officers. So they will then decide, they will look at that and they will see who else do we need to take a statement from? Do we need to go get CCTV? Do we need to speak to your GP? Do we need to speak to your friends? Do we need to speak to family members? Have you identified potentially someone else who may have experienced some form of similar behaviour by the same perpetrator, we will then potentially approach that person and see if they are willing to give us a statement. So generally speaking, that the content of what comes out in your statement is the thing that influences the investigation in the background, something to be aware of is that there is no legal time limit on how long investigations can take so they can take a long time. I think people often have, the general public, have a sense that investigations are all like blue flashing lights and like rolling over the bonnet of the car and jumping in and like banging down people’s doors, and often they are a lot slower. And they feel like not much is happening. I think particularly if you’re reporting something that is outside of that forensic window. Then generally speaking, they will plod along rather than race along.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 29:27

I suppose. Katie, before I move on to final questions, have you got any sort of reflections on on what Cerys and Alison have just shared?

 

Katie Anderson, Rape Crisis Scotland 29:34

No, I think they’re both absolutely right. Like you do, in some ways. In an ideal world, it’s not an ideal world, because in an ideal world, you wouldn’t, it wouldn’t happen. And if it did happen, you wouldn’t need all of that emotional resilience to work through it. And in an ideal world, you are able to pool those resources around you, you’re able to take that time you’re able to do that healing before you engage with it. I would say for anyone who is listening to the podcast, who has already reported or who doesn’t feel like they can cope with waiting to be in a more resilient place, there are services that can support you, Rape Crisis can support you, the National Advocacy Project can support you, you don’t have to go through that process. If you are currently going through it alone, you do not have to go through it alone. So please do reach out to us because we can put you in touch with people who will have your back for that process, it might not change the outcome. But hopefully it will help you to have a bit more resource behind you.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 30:27

If you could pick one thing, and I do appreciate that this is very, very difficult. But if there was, if there was one thing that you just really want to pull out, like, I know, Allison, you just sort of mentioned policy and training and consistency and things like, is there something that you would say or even not even necessarily one thing, but a message to decision makers? Like what would you like the people who have the power to change the system, what would you say to them?

 

Cerys 30:49

Okay, well, firstly, I’d say come and have a meeting with SRG, or talk to people more in depth, because you’re not going to get it from a quick podcast, that’d be the first thing. The second thing, I’m glad I’m so glad you asked that, because something that I wanted to make sure I said kind of during this reporting podcast is that it’s such a long topic. So it’s so difficult to try and get important points across. But something that I feel really strongly about is that I felt like I was being investigated quite a lot. And that he wasn’t, and as I say, my mine lasted for nine months. And that was partly because of COVID delays and things to be honest. But my understanding is, you know, this happened when I was 17. I reported when I was 23. That lasted for nine months. And he was interviewed for a couple of hours. And that was it. That was his punishment. That was his investigation. Whereas I was dealing with this every day for years and then months of an investigation, I feel like it was just totally the wrong way round. And it was the same like they asked if they could access my GP records, which I said yes to but my health records and things, and that there’s no scenario where they would have the right to look into a perpetrator like that. And even my, like the detective sergeant of my case, who I spoke to multiple times for various reasons, and said to me, and I will never forget it, that the accused have more rights than the victims. And that’s that’s what he said at the top of you know, his game in that kind of area, he honestly believes that actually the people that are getting accused have more rights than the victims. And that’s true...

 

Alison 32:29

 I think that’s so true.

 

Cerys 32:30

They they do because they aren’t investigated...

 

Alison 32:33

they didn’t even investigate, my guy doesn’t even know I’d report, they like I had so much more done to me than he ever got done to him. Like, it sounds like it’s exactly the same.

 

Cerys 32:44

Because I always assumed if you reported something like of this nature, they would speak to a perpetrator’s like work speak to their ex partners and try and create a picture of, of this person. And they don’t do any of that they’re not even allowed to access like their university records or their work records without kind of specific indication, you know, and they just spoke to him for a couple of hours. And he said I didn’t do it, and they went, ‘Alright, then.’ And that’s what it feels like. Yeah, it just feels like he just well, he obviously said no comment throughout the interview. But that’s it. I feel like they just sort of patted him on the back. And they’re like, right, well, have a good day. That’s how it feels. Even though what he has done should be and is meant to be a really, really serious crime that’s had a long lasting impact.

 

Alison 33:35

I don’t think it’s treated as seriously as it should be. I don’t think sexual violence is treated as a seriously as like physical violence I do I lost a shit tonne of blood during that experience. And I think if I’d say lost the same amount of blood, because some because he’d like shot me or stab me or something, I think the would have been treated entirely different. And I think that sexual violence is not treated with enough respect as it should be. Given that you are dealing with A, a very traumatic incident and B, a bunch of societal stuff that isn’t necessarily attached to other violent like crime. It’s not treated with enough respect as it should be. And it’s yeah, it’s ridiculous.

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 34:21

What would your message be to the decision makers?

 

Alison 34:23

I say my message would be you need to maintain consistency and a high quality of practice throughout the police force. Because the problem is you can have the best department in the world. But if one of them’s crap, you’ve just scuppered your whole your whole force basically. I think the problem is is that there’s probably great police officers out there.. you shouldn’t have to have that experience. Because it’s going to make a difference to people’s lives. At the end of the day,

 

Brenna, Rape Crisis Scotland 35:07

I suppose then just to finish us off, I would just like to know if if there’s a message that you have, for anyone who’s listening, who’s maybe been, through what you’ve been through, what that message would be,

 

Alison 35:20

My message would be, it’s going to be okay. It’s going to be the hardest fight of your life, but you will get out of it, and you will have a good life and it will be okay.

 

Cerys 35:29

If you decide to report and you go through that process. In a way, you’ve already done the hardest bit like that’s what I kept saying to myself is actually, if you’ve if you’ve been raped, or sexually assaulted, and you’ve survived, that you can survive anything like you can and as difficult as it will be. And I do think all the things I’ve said that you should try and be in a good headspace and do it for the right reasons, et cetera, et cetera. But that’s all easier said than done. Ultimately, you can, you can still do it because you’ve done the hardest bit. And just be kind to yourself and look after yourself, and I’m rooting for you.

 

Ciara, Rape Crisis Scotland 36:07

Some of these interviews were recorded before the Scottish Government published its Victims, Witnesses and justice Reform bill. If passed, this bill will make major changes to how survivors experience justice and could introduce changes including specialist courts for sexual offences and judge led trials. For more information on the bill and updates on its progress, visit the Rape Crisis Scotland website or social media channels. This podcast has covered a lot of really difficult issues. If you need to talk then our helpline can provide short term and initial support and make referrals to other services and local support. The helpline is open from 5pm to midnight every night. All the details are in our show notes and on our website. Thank you to our guests and to all of you at home for listening. Take care